Saturday, January 27, 2007


After I wrote this :

I get bored with writing about race and demography. I get cheesed when those who don't like black or Asian people assume that I agree with them. I worry that some of the remarks in the comments threads will put off the people I want to attract to the blog - lefties who've got the odd niggling doubt as to whether all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds, and who might be prepared to look at evidence to the contrary. I worry that this blog's getting a bit monochrome in its choice of subjects.

I got some supportive comments that made me feel a little less like a voice shouting in the wilderness.

I also got this email which, with permission, I reproduce. Not much there I can disagree with.

I have two daughters and a son, I was born and raised in Birmingham, and as you will know, when you have children, your whole perspective changes, and you start to think about what kind of world they will grow up in. I like reading your blog because it is honest and it chimes with worries that I have too, and if I will be honest, quite a few Indian people I know wonder on these issues, especially those of my age and at this stage of life. I don't read the comments though for fear of what they may contain!

I would say before 9/11 I was a fairly typical kind of defensive-about-race British Indian guy, an instinctive defensivness that was probably half genuine insecurity (memories of the National Front) and half posturing. It was the reaction of some people to 9/11, coupled with a growing awareness that there was a tangible, shall we say, 'excitability' in the air amongst some of the Muslim youths I share a city with, along with fatherhood, and a need to be honest about certain things, certain persistent dysfunctions that changed my mood. Ultimately, nobody I know that is British Indian was surprised when the 7/7 bombers came from the British Mirpuri community --- if we are honest it has been bubbling under, the rhetoric was in our face even long before the Iraq war.

We have serious issues --- generally, Asians need to become less defensive and open up, some more than others. You will know about the differentials from amongst the Asian communities themselves. The situation is dynamic, but all sorts of indicators like the relative success of Indian children at school do point to the possibility of Indians and eventually (most or at least some) Pakistanis and others following the Jewish model of academic/business success and melting into the bourgeoisie.

What terrifies me, I mean really terrifies me, is the X factor, the suicide bombers, the continuing perpetuation of this grievance culture that has, I have to admit, been fostered, or at least stoked, by some on the left. Terrified because of the sheer horror of what they can do, and a secondary horror of any backlash. I don't want my daughters and son growing up in an atmosphere as thick with hate that might accrue because of these issues. It's why I lose my patience with those on the left, and some Muslim identity politicians that don't face up to the problem.

And if we are serious too ---- yes, we need a moratorium on immigration for at least ten years and work things out. We'll always need immigrants, but let's be more selective. And we need to somehow stop chain migration from Mirpur and Sylhet. Supporting a law to discourage marrying boys and girls from back there has to be brought in --- there are enough British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and Indians in the UK now for parents to introduce to their children if that is what they want to do in terms of marriage. This will be tough, but something has to be done to discourage that practise, especially amongst girls, especially amongst the young. Certainly the forced marriage legislation needs to be seriously considered. Continually importing women and men who bring the 'back home' culture doesn't allow the kids to find their own settlement with British society on their own terms and leads to frustrations and failure to integrate, which becomes like a vicious cycle, this becomes like a self perpetuating thing and when relations between them and mainstream society get worse it becomes more difficult to break the process, the rejection on both sides, belligerence and so on and so on.

So many issues, so much to say.


Anonymous said...

Welcome words . Will the boil burst or be lanced?

Anonymous said...

I identify wholly with the views expressed in this email. Let's hope that increasing numbers of representatives from well-established minority communities emerge out of the woodwork of the Orwellian nightmare that is 21st century Britain.

Anonymous said...

I agree with this guys immigration policy, a moratorium then be more selective. But I think its already too late to stop serious social 'problems'.

I'm curious to know what a British Indian thinks about devolution of Scotland, Wales and North Ireland. With the possible destruction of Britain if Scotland pullout.

Will this add to the identity crisis some people / communities have? I'd guess it would.

Is the government going to one day say to British Muslims that even though they've been trying to convince them to accept a British identity for 15-20 years, the deal's now off and they're now English Muslims, somehow I can't see that going smoothly.
Or perhaps more likely we'll all be told thats unworkable and therefore we must all be citizens of The USEurope now.

The ruling elite have created a lot of problems which are going to hit us all at once in a few years.

Tbh I don't see a problem with comments on this blog other than GW who manages to trace every single problem in the world down to the Jews.

Anonymous said...

What an articulate, lucid and well-reasoned post!

I agree that there has to be a 10-year (at least; preferably 20 year - almost two generations) moratorium on immigration. At the end of that period, there should be Most Favoured Groups, just as there used to be in the US, or the Aussie point system. In other words, rigidly judgemental, with admittance only for people judged to be producers and likely to benefit Britain in terms of wealth creation. Applications for citizenship entertained after five years and only those who passed the exam admitted to citizenship, as in the US.)

The sickening habit of Pakistanis importing tribal primitives to marry should be stopped poste haste. They do not speak English - meaning their children grow up with the disadvantage that as one parent cannot speak English, English is not spoken in the home. This parent will never leave the ghetto, meaning they are an anchor to the ghetto and ghetto mentality for children.

Also, first-cousin marriages, generation after generation produce a horrifying number of birth defects. Pakistanis - with a population of around 3m (assuming the government figure of 2.5m is a lie) produce one-third of all the birth defects in the NHS in a population of 60m people. Anne Cryer, a Bradford MP, is trying to get first cousin marriage outlawed.

The British must take back control of our country. We have always welcomed producing immigrants. (I don't know why your correspondent was "defensive about race",given that many English people are in awe of Indian intelligence and application.)

We have a glorious history and should bang it into the heads of children, as the Americans do with their own glorious history with their Bill of Rights and their incredible Constitution.

But we must wrest control of our country from the communists and rabid, toxic, viparious left and restore civil order and sanity.

Laban said...

I do wish you wouldn't go on about tribal primitives, Verity. It's amazing what culture can do. After all, there were plenty of English tribal primitives on the Devon beaches last week, only 2 or three generations away from righteous, upright Victorians. It can work both ways.

(of course we do have the problem that there's no culture to assimilate to now)

Anonymous said...

Laban, they are careful to import people from the same tribe, their cousins. They do not marry outside the family. Most human societies were aware, long before it was proved scientifically, that incest produces a staggering number of birth defects, including mental impairment.

Given that almost every society has a justified horror/fear of inbreeding, people who have not advanced to this knowledge, even after we have had scientific proof (i.e., it's not just hearsay or folk tales any more) are still marrying their first cousins. By any measure, Laban, this is primitive.

Of course I would condemn the Neanderthals (is that better?)on the Devon beaches, but their chilling behaviour was not institutionalised and codified, as are Pakistani marriage practices.

Anonymous said...

I am the author of the e-mail that Laban Tall published. Thanks for your comments.

A couple of things --- Dave asked how the whole issue of devolution will affect wider 'identity politics'. It's a very good question and something I will have to think about a little. Maybe if the issue arises on this blog in the future after I have had a chance to think on it I will be able to offer some considered thoughts.

Verity, the reason why I used to have an instinctive defensivness about race was because I grew up in the 1970's and 1980's when a week did not pass by in which either members of my family, friends or myself were involved in some kind of racist abuse. This includes the cousin of a friend from Slough being stabbed to death by skinheads. The NF were active where we lived and you were terrified to venture out of the house sometimes. The racist abuse, 'Paki Bashing', bullying and violence were open and in your face. I don't know if it is possible for you to understand the sense of humiliation and pain that kind of thing inculcates in people, but it is not nice. It was sustained and constant. It's not nice to see your mother spat at regularly.

Thankfully things are not like that now; in fact it is hard to believe that things were ever like that. We live in a generally tolerant society, and racial violence is a much more complex picture than it was then. Laban Tall gets angry when things get over hyped or there are double standards when racist murders happen, and to a certain extent I agree because there is a danger of excessively portraying a society in which Britain is dripping in racism, but compared to the 1970’s and 1980’s, Britain is not like that. But the horror of 1970’s/1980s Britain when Paki Bashing was a casual sport has partly formed who I am and my outlook in life. Maybe it made me over-sensitive at times. But it is my experience. And I won’t white wash it.

My parents worked in factories and all of my siblings worked hard and are now professionals, we did it through education and taking advantage of the opportunities in this country. We all have children who will be raised in a society different to the one we grew up in, in which they live in leafy middle class suburbs, and we are proud that within two generations of our parents coming to England we have achieved so much for our family and we did it honestly without blaming anyone else for problems we faced. We got our heads down and worked hard at school and university and in our chosen careers to by-pass any discrimination and disadvantage. That's why making the education system a tool for raising the self-esteem of black or Asian children is fundamentally flawed. Teach them the basics so they can excel and their self esteem will rise naturally. Mess about with airy-fairy notions and it inculcates resentment and victim complex and doesn’t address why some groups of ethnic minority children do well at school and don’t need the state to raise their self esteem and others do (for example, black girls in contrast to black boys, Indian children in contrast to Pakistani Muslims)

Anyway, I think positive things are happening. The bill to give civil remedies to those facing forced marriage may be a precursor to a long over-due criminal legislation. And the practice of Mirpuri and Sylheti girls being taken out of school has to be attacked with great seriousness. This chain migration and restricting of opportunity for Muslim girls especially is a major root cause of the situation of ghettoisation. But that is just one thing of many that needs to be done. More later if the inspiration to write or the issues arise.

Anonymous said...

Jay, thank you for your interesting post.

One thought arises: the Indians applied themselves, were and are disciplined, have a law-abiding cultural background and are pragmatic people. For these reasons, they have excelled. There are many Indians who are much, much wealthier than 99% of the indigenes and for this I applaud them. They also speak excellent English, they are sought after in the professions and they are, in the main, very quick witted.

The muslims, by contrast, have not made progress. Why?

I don't think it is up to the host society to try to move muslim girls ahead. I don't believe in special pleading or reverse discrimination. The Indians, the Jews and the Chinese got their success through their own industry and intelligence.

Tony Blair, a destructive, malevolent spirit if ever there was one, has spent 10 years appeasing the muslims. He has already announced that Parliament will not make forced marriage illegal.

We as a society do not want any more of these cousin brides and bridegrooms in our country. Apart from the damage they are doing to their own gene pool (and the cost to the NHS of their high volume of birth defects), they have a non-achieving ghetto mentality - by and large; there are always exceptions in every culture, obviously. If one parent doesn't speak English, then English will not be spoken in the home. Thus the children will never have a secure grasp of their native tongue and will probably do badly in school and will not easily make friends outside their own tongue. Plus many muslim parents bring their children up with a sense of grievance and a sense of being different.

How very different from the American insistence that everyone adopt American standards, be proud of America and its history, fit in or ship out. It is a much more cohesive society than Blair's tragically fragmented Britain.

Placating muslims doesn't work. In fact, placating any group never works. It only encourages them to push further and further.

Blair has handled this in his typical cowardly way - fearful of not being liked. Having way too much confidence in his own sleazy charm.